Some martial artists like Kaitan and Baguamonk1 beleive that Taijiquan practitioners should bounce about and use Kick-Boxing techniques in combat, but we in Shaolin Wahnam beleive that Taijiquan practitioners, logically, should use Taijiquan techniques. The picture above shows Sifu Robin and his student, Greg, using Taijiquan techniques in sparring.

The following discussion is reproduced from the thread Dispelling Ignorance and Untruths: A Case Study of Baguamonk's Posts started in the Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Forum on 25th September 2006.

Jordan Francis

Sifu Jordan Francis
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
14th October 2006

Let’s Join Hands to Restore the Glory of Kung Fu


Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

And I laugh at above post, saying that I "concluded" that I thought Chinese Martial Arts was a joke as a whole..Oh wow, no wonder I don't take this thread seriously.

You do not take this thread seriously because you lack understanding. I believe you may actually learn something having read my explanation. The choice is yours. Either use this opportunity to improve yourself or continue to laugh.

Although you did not use the exact words to say “ Chinese martial arts were a joke ”, your posts suggested so.

The following quotes from you are all taken from a single post.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

It is my opinion that most of Taiji out there is "dance" and even high level masters aren't competent in the art of fighting.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

I personally think Taiji needs to evolve, not just taiji, but CMA in general.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

And yes, an internal strike, is still in some-way shape or form a "physical" form of striking.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

Also as to what some people have said about "boxing" and "muscular" training, there is nothing wrong with balancing things out with muscular training.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

All I was trying to say about "boxing" was that if you were to use IMA body mechanics to strike in certain ways quickly and decisvely in a real situation, it might not look too different from your typical fight.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

There is nothing wrong with "bouncing" footwork so long as it is trained and for a purpose.

In case you don’t remember, this post is from the Tai Chi Chaun thread in which you came to defend Kaitan long after the debate had ended. A significant point in this debate was that Kaitan advocated bouncing around and using boxing and wrestling techniques over Tai Chi Chaun stances and techniques. He also thought that internal force was unreal. Our position was clear – we advocated using stances and Tai Chi Chaun patterns, and that using internal force was very real.

Kaitan basically said our Tai Chi Chaun techniques were ineffective, and even offered to show us how ineffective they were in person. Jamie, Robin and Ronan were more than happy to accept Kaitan's offer, but in the end this did not take place.

As you stepped in to defend Kaitan, you logically suggested you shared his views that bouncing around and using boxing or wrestling techniques were superior to Tai Chi Chaun, and that internal force was not real. The quotes above enforce this view of yours and suggest that Chinese Martial Arts are not as they were, which is another way of saying they are a joke.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

Has the reputation, and condition of these arts severely been comprimised??

Yes. When you speak as an authority and with more than 80% of Chinese martial art practitioners practicing their arts as a dance or gymnastics, your comments only worsen the reputation and condition of these arts. It is exactly this reason why we speak out so strongly, to spread the truth.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1 Yes. I never SAID all, but there is a vast majority of BS out there, and anyone who can't see that is dellusional.

If your view is that genuine Chinese martial arts, such as Tai Chi Chaun, use stances in combat, develop internal force and are combat effective, but due to various reasons this essence is now lost to most practitioners, then your view is the same as ours. If this is the case, we should then unite to restore the glory of Chinese martial arts.

Many in Shaolin Wahnam have direct experience of this essence. We employ stances in combat, use internal force and are combat efficient thanks to the techniques found in our art. And instead of hiding this gem, which was once a secret, we actually want to share it with the rest of the world, to those who are deserving, including you if you wish.

But your previous posts did not convey this view. Instead, you conveyed the view that Chinese martial arts were a joke, and not effective for combat in their current form. Hence, those who practice Chinese martial arts, like Tai Chi Chaun, must borrow techniques from Boxing, Kick-Boxing, Wrestling and other martial arts if they wish to fight well.

However, we shall be very glad if, after reading my explanation, you have changed your view. We should then join hands to restore the glory of kung fu.

Jordan Francis
Shaolin Wahnam Bristol / Bournemouth

Many Chinese martial art schools today have lost their sparring methodolgy and teach only external forms. But in Shaolin Wahnam we use Shaolin or Taijiquan techniques for combat. The picture above shows students at a regional Shaolin Kungfu course in Germany using Shaolin techniques in their sparring.

15th October 2006

I hope you get paid to do this, because its nonsense.

Everything you say is your own personal opinions on things I have said. Go prove that your opinions, or views on things are fact.

As Kevin said, it is not even worth it replying to anything, because it will only make it worse, You will continue no matter what I say. Using clever misdirection (as other people claim I do), clever use of words and vocabulary to try and debunk everything I say.

It is my opinion, DEAL WITH IT. If you're high and mighty pre-conceptions of what Shaolin, or Taiji is seem to crumble to the ground, then so be it, that is your fault. Not mine.

Why does something have to "look like taijiquan" to be taijiquan . You're Shaolin Wahnam taijiquan looks nothing like any other taijiquan style I have seen, and yet I still consider it Taijiquan. A punch is a punch, I don't care how exotic or sophisticated the art, it is likely there is a punch similar looking in one art, to the next. Fajing is fast, in case you did not know. And it isn't always Chen Xiao Wang-looking fajing, sometimes it doesn't look much different from a normal punch at all (again to the untrained eye).

This is a positive Bias towards everything that is Wahnam material, or gospel/beliefs, and a Bias against anything that doesn't fit it. As evidenced not just by me, but by every other "outsider" who posts here. Just calm down, go spend your day doing something else than jabbering endless nonsense, and quit talking about me as if I am not here. Baguamonk this, Baguamonk that, do you actually take yourself seriously? This isn't a court of law, this is an internet forum. Yes I know its ultra-famous and you guys are world class kung fu experts, but even so....

Its not even worth reading your supposed case study anymore. Its boring, and you are spewing the same things over and over. Have fun typing for long periods at a time about something that has no bearing or meaning to me, and probably none to your students.

I said wrestling techniques were superior to taijiquan? See what I mean, this thread is absolute nonsense, again you are putting words in my mouth "But your posts infer this according to the background information, we can prove it blah blah blah" BS, and you know it. I was saying taijiquan could be used with "Wrestling" hell they call Shuai Jou wrestling. Peng, Lu, Al, Lieh, etc. can ALL be used in wrestling, so can tingjing and fali. If you don't know that, then I call YOU ignorant. You are desperate.

Jordan Francis Sifu Jordan Francis
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
15th October 2006

Don’t be an agent to degrade the traditional Chinese martial arts


Again I am disappointed at your response. Earlier, when you did not respond I thought you were considering the points I mentioned, especially in my two earlier posts on “A Lesson on Mental Clarity and Coherent Presentation” and “Principles and Practice, Facts and Opinions”, and benefiting from them. Obviously, my hope was premature. Your latest post shows you are still not ready to benefit from this discussion.

I am not going to waste time on you. I have a few more posts. Don’t flatter yourself that these posts were written just for you, though as I have said earlier you could be the one who would benefit the most. Notwithstanding this, your ignorance and untruths provide the material for my writing.

I have enjoyed writing the posts and have benefited much. I believe many other people, including my students, have benefited too. Whether you are going to respond to my posts or are going to learn anything from them is your business.

Originally Posted by Baguamonk1

And if you don't think the cultural revolution had anything to do with this, well then that is your opinion.

I do not know how you wrongly conclude that I thought the Cultural Revolution had nothing to do with the pathetic degradation of the Chinese martial arts. The fact is that we believe the Cultural Revolution, during which time traditional arts such as kung fu and chi kung were almost wiped out, had a great deal to do with the degradation of Chinese martial arts.

But this was certainly not the only cause. Luckily, genuine traditional Chinese martial arts were passed down in lineages outside of China before the Cultural Revolution set in. Thus when China lost its traditional arts inside of China, outside of China they still continued to flourish in various lineages.

Case in point, we in Shaolin Wahnam are incredibly fortunate to inherit these arts from the two lineages which merge in Sifu. These are the Lai Chin Wah lineage, from the Venerable Chee Seen and the Ho Fatt Lam lineage, from the Venerable Jiang Nan.

Other practitioners, including those who practice Tai Chi dance and Shaolin gymnastics, may have also learned from authentic lineages that can be traced back to genuine great masters in the past. For example, many amongst those who practice Tai Chi dance today can trace their lineage back to the great Tai Chi Chaun master, Yang Lu Chan. So then, why are they practicing Tai Chi dance, or practicing Kick-Boxing while pretending it to be Tai Chi Chaun? There are two main reasons.

One, their lineages span many generations and often with gaps in between. For example there may be 30 generations between the Tai Chi dancer found today and the great master Yang Lu Chan. At some point along their lineages, the essence was lost and all that was left to pass on was the external forms.

Two, most of the masters in the past were conservative, and many of the lineage holders might have started teaching their students before they themselves had learnt the secrets from their masters. As a result the subsequent practitioners in these lineages would have missed the secrets, the very essence of their arts. All that was left to pass on was their external forms.

We are lucky not to be beset by these two problems in Shaolin Wahnam.

Firstly, the Venerable Chee Seen and the Venerable Jiang Nan were the last of the real Shaolin monks who escaped from the burning of the Shaolin Temple . Although this great historic event happened about 150 years ago (spreading Shaolin kung fu all over the world) we are blessed to be only 6 generations from the Venerable Chee Seen, and just 4 generations from the venerable Jiang Nan. Now compare this with most other lineages today. Most may span over 20 generations!. We are very lucky indeed.

Secondly, Shaolin Wahnam is incredibly open with secrets. We even share with the public secrets that many masters may not even tell their advanced students! More significantly, we do not merely talk about secrets, we help our students to directly experience them .

I believe that despite spending some time practising your three internal arts you have gained little or no experience of chi or internal force. This is glaringly obvious to us just from reading your posts (though you may not realise it). Do you know how long it takes a student who is a fresh beginner to experience chi or internal force in Shaolin Wahnam? Less than a month in most cases, and if he takes a course with Sifu, he usually experiences it in his first lesson! As Sifu often says, if a practitioner could have such result in three years, he would be happy.

Now what have all these to do with this thread? Everything! It is posts like yours that help in the rapid degradation of Chinese martial arts , perhaps more damaging than the Cultural Revolution.

We in Shaolin Wahnam have personally experienced the truths of the traditional Chinese martial arts as revealed in their classics, and we have derived great benefits from them. We are willing to share our knowledge and experience with others in order to restore the greatness of these arts. If you do not believe in us, that is fine, and we sincerely wish you success in whatever arts you choose to follow.

But, although you yourself may not realize it, your posts in this and other forums on Chinese martial arts in general, especially when you wrote as if you were an expert, greatly undermine people’s confidence in the traditional Chinese martial arts. You become an agent to degrade the very arts you yourself practice.

Jordan Francis
Shaolin Wahnam Bristol / Bournemouth


Dispelling Ignorance and Untruths: A Case Study of Baguamonk1's Posts

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