Sifu Wong Kiew Kit's Home Page

A Discussion on Yielding — Part 11

IS THE TECHNIQUE IN THE VIDEO SIMILAR TO THAT IN THE PICTURES?

Sifu Marcus, Sifu Anthony, Challenger and Others



:”Yielding
The technique Simon (left) uses to yield to and counter Mark's push


Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second

Is Sifu Anthony's technique similar to Simon's technique?


The following discussion is reproduced from the thread A Discussion on Yielding started in the Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Forum on 14th February 2006. The name of a main contributor to this thread is removed as requested by him, and is replaced by “Challenger” or any term appropriate to the occasion. As the discussion is long, it is presented here in parts.


Lee Wei Joo
Shaolin Wahnam Malaysia
19th March 2006

I would like to add my experiences regarding yielding. Please note that I am just a beginner in the Shaolin Wahnam arts, and that I have not really gone in depth into the theories of yielding before. However, reading this thread has really opened up my eyes into how much of yielding is incorporated into our combat sequences, whether it be direct-counter (False Leg Hand Sweep) or swallow-shoot (Dark Dragon Enters Well).

Seeing our Taijiquan Pushing Hands photos that my Siheng Marcus has so kindly provided, I decided to try it out with my Sidi Hwan King even though we have never practised Taijiquan before. While our hands were in the pattern as shown in photo 1, where our hands were in contact, I could actually feel that my hand had somehow merged with my Sidi's hand, as if my force and his force were flowing continuously together.

When he began pushing with his hand, I did my best to go with his flow, maintaining a relaxed state of mind and following his flow of force. What was amazing was that I could somehow sense when his force had stopped flowing, or emptied out. It was as if the flow of his force just stopped, I can't really quite explain it. It was at this point that I started pushing my hands so that he could feel my force as well. Later he said that feeling the force was very subtle.

As regards to my Shaolinquan training, I have found the concept of yielding very much alive in combat Sequence 6, particularly when "Dark Dragon Enters Well" is used to counter "Dark Dragon Draws Water". By sinking into a Horse Riding stance the momentum of the attack is swallowed and if he's not careful he will find himself at the mercy of the shooting “Dark Dragon Enters Well” because he is pulled forward.

I hope I have explained things clearly enough to understand. I will continue to follow this thread with great interest.

With Shaolin Salute,
Lee Wei Joo


Marcus Santer Sifu Marcus Santer
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
19th March 2006

Quote
“Still awaiting a response from Marcus.......!”.


As I started to plan out a point-by-point response to Challenger's post number182, my son Ollie promptly reminded me that I had more important ways to spend my time on a Sunday. I'm on potty training duty this weekend. (Smile) So, I will leave the readers of this thread to draw their own conclusions from Challenger's latest postings.

I only have 3 or 4 more pictorial sequences to post based on the material covered in this thread so far. As a token of my continued respect for Challenger, I will not use his name in any of these posts.

By the end of next week I will be moving on to explore yielding and its application against other forms of attack. I have already planned most of the written material for this section of the thread. I will endeavour to avoid upsetting Challenger any further, but as one of the most senior, and prolific posting, non-Shaolin Wahnam student on this forum I have planned to ask Challenger for his thoughts on how he would respond to particular combat situations using yielding. It is of course Challenger's decision as to whether he shares his thoughts with us or not. Personally I hope he will continue to share his wisdom and experience with us so that we can all continue to learn.

Quote
“After all...it's only an online discussion forum. Perhaps we're all taking these exchanges too seriously.”.


Wise words indeed and one's to remember.

Clive, no offence taken. Your point on Skill is well mentioned.

Anthony and Jeffrey, my thanks to both of you. I am privileged to call you my “elder brothers” and proud to mention it here. A nod and a wink to my other Shaolin Wahnam brothers and sisters who continue to keep this thread interesting and on track. My thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread, I believe it is fulfilling its original objective (over 8600 views!!). Finally a special thank you to Challenger without whom this thread, and the learning presented within it, would never have been started. Here's to having even more fun.

Right back on Potty Patrol (Laugh)

Kind regards

Marcus

Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha Namo Amitabha Buddha


__________________
Shaolin Wahnam — London
Take back responsibility for your health and well being

Visit us at http://www.shaolinwahnam.co.uk .


:”Yielding
The technique Simon (left) uses to yield to and counter Mark's push


Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second

Is Sifu Anthony's technique similar to Simon's technique?


Challenger
a grandmaster of another school
20th March 2006

Sifu Korahais:

The new topic in a new thread was an excellent attempt at re-direction...which I presume was intended to deflect attention away from your failed attempt to actually duplicate the application of the techniques and footwork presented in the still photo sequence earlier in this thread...as claimed...in one (1) second or less...on video...against a live opponent. Just to make sure that you duplicate the photo presentation accurately, let's review it frame by frame.

Photo #1 shows the defender either stepping forward with the right foot to make initial contact with the pushing assailant, or stepping backward with the left foot when making initial contact with the assailant while remaining weighted on the forward right leg. It's nearly impossible to determine exactly which foot made the step in a still photo, but you can clarify that in your new video clip...perhaps demonstrating both ways for speed comparison.

Photo #2 shows the defender shifting his weight backward onto the rear left leg and foot while beginning to yield and neutralize the frontal push to his right side using both hands.

Photo #3 shows the defender completing the neutralization to his right side with his left hand on or near the assailant's right elbow while extending his right arm and hand forward across the assailant's chest, simultaneously withdrawing the forward right leg and foot and repositioning it from the inside to the outside of and behind the attacker's front leg in preparation for the throw or takedown to follow.

Photo #4 shows the defender advancing his rear left leg and foot forward and somewhat leftward to execute the throw or takedown with his armbar and right hand applied to the attacker's chest while tripping him over the repositioned right leg.

I stated my opinion that most fighters other than accomplished and experienced masters would have difficulty performing this series in only one second or less....which I feel would be necessary if it is to be successfully executed before the assailant can react with other steps or hand techniques. As such, I agree that the technique is potentially a good one...so I am only questioning the amount of time it requires to perform. You confidently assured everyone that you are capable of performing this series of movements against a live assailant in one (1) second or less, and would prove your claim by so demonstrating the series shown in the still photos on a video clip. I greatly admire your courage in generously offering to do so, and look forward to your revised video clip.

Respectfully

Challenger


George
Shaolin Wahnam England
20th March 2006

Quote Originally Posted by Antonius
“Out of curiosity, who thinks that the video I posted is a different technique from the pictures Marcus posted? Please be honest. I'm just curious.”


It's the same technique, except Simon performed it in a slightly different way (making the necessary adjustments for the way Mark moved.) There will always be such differences when applying against a real partner.

That said, in my very humble opinion, I think Challenger is trying hard to add extra steps. (Smile)

I disagree with treating photo #1 as a separate step - it is the starting point for Marks push.

Steps #2 and #4 are clearly in your video.

Step #3 (the adjusting of the defender's foot from inside to outside of attackers body) is not in your video, but then why should it be in a solo demonstration? It is a reaction to the real partner in front!

However, the actual adjustment would add almost no time to the overall sequence. The weight is on the back foot during the yield so moving the front foot around to the other side is really easy - I am speaking from personal experience here.

Obviously there will be slight adjustments in width of stance, maybe a little shuffle-step after the adjustment, but these happen naturally and only show up in partner practice, rather than a solo demonstration. It's all part of the applications being 'alive'.

__________________
George Shaolin Wahnam England


Chris3212
Guest
20th March 2006

All I'd say is the step into the technique wasn't as big as in the pictures. In the pictures the step, I believe, moves to the other side of the opponent's leg. Other than that I see no differences.

__________________
"To know the riches of the martial arts, begin by standing still" - Grand Master Wang Xiang Zhai


:”Yielding
The technique Simon (left) uses to yield to and counter Mark's push


Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second

Is Sifu Anthony's technique similar to Simon's technique?


Mblohm
Shaolin Wahnam USA
20th March 2006

I only see the footwork differences, but I don't see that causing a speed problem.

From my thinking, much of the speed of the whole encounter depends on the speed of the attack. However, I think the defender (responder) would have more speed control over the second part of the attack. That's where his technique could be very fast if desired. The first part of the defender's technique may be very slow if the attack is very slow.

Mark


Sunyata
Shaolin Wahnam USA
20th March 2006

I think the issue lies between pictures 2 and 3. You see the footwork adjustment made by Simon, but what the picture series adequately fails to convey is the extent of the footwork adjustment.

When I initially viewed the footage, I thought that Sifu Anthony had both feet planted for the execution of the technique -- I now see that he does lift up his front foot. Whether that is enough of a footwork change (or fast enough) to bring your leg around the other person's front foot is a question of skill and mastery.

That said, Taijiquan is famous for varying the outward form during application to meet the needs of a given situation -- accounting for the numerous differences in performing the set. It seems similar enough to me.


Challenger
a grandmaster of another school
20th March 2006

Horseshoes and Hand Grenades!

There's an old American saying which states "Close only counts when tossing horseshoes or hand grenades." Anyone with at least one good eye can see that Sifu Korahais's slick little video only duplicates the arm and hand technique of the previously posted still photo series, but not the footwork . The video is not the same .

I didn't ask to have extra steps inserted into the sequence. They are clearly present in the still photos, and clearly absent in the video! Changing steps and footwork generally take more time to perform than do hand techniques alone performed in a fixed stance without steps. This is not just my personal opinion, but a known fact. This was my initial point regarding the amount of time required, and as such, I await the revised video which exactly duplicates the photo sequence in One (1) Second or less.

Challenger


:”Yielding
The technique Simon (left) uses to yield to and counter Mark's push


Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second Anthony countering in one second

Is Sifu Anthony's technique similar to Simon's technique?


Anthony Korahais Sifu Anthony Korahais
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam USA
20th March 2006

Dear Challenger,

Well, it seems that several people think it's close enough for jazz. I also think so. I'll briefly explain why. But then I'll move on because it doesn't matter. What matters is that my video shows an effective way to yield and counter in less than a second .

But to address your earlier points, Challenger, I disagree that there are 4 steps. There are certainly 4 photos , but not 4 steps. From the photos, I see no reason to assume that photo #1 involves a step backward or forward. It is the starting position. Nothing more. Photos #2-3 are pretty clear in my video, and I'm not going to argue these. As for Photo #4, Simon did readjust his foot. It goes from in front of Mark's leg to the back of it.

Now, if you watch my video again , you'll see that I am gaining ground each time I do the technique. How do I gain ground? I do it by readjusting my front foot as I shift into Horse stance. That footwork is quite similar to what Simon shows and does not affect the speed of the technique.

I'm not going to revise the video. I've shown enough already. How many videos would I have to make before you would concede the point, Challenger? Honestly, I don't think you would ever concede the point, even if I made 100 videos.

Maybe I would consider revising if it was a fair exchange where you were also providing videos, or at least images, to substantiate your arguments. But you aren't. You seem fully capable of posting pictures of Buddhas, art, and icons (which are lovely), but incapable of posting images of yourself. And yet when others post images or videos, they never seem to be good enough.

I can't even count how many videos and pictures there are of me out there on the Internet. This gives me credibility and proves that I am not just a scholar with a keyboard. Heck, I even custom-made a video for this discussion. But even that wasn't good enough for you, Challenger.

The important thing is that it is good enough for other people. I've demonstrated the technique, and shown that it can be done in under 1 second. Getting back to the topic at hand, would you agree, Challenger, that this technique is an effective way to yield and counter a push?

Best,

__________________
Anthony Korahais
Shaolin Wahnam, Florida
http://www.FlowingZen.com .


Challenger
a grandmaster of another school
21st March 2006

Empty Promises!

Dear Sifu Korahais:

Truthfully...I'd probably be willing to let you off the hook on this video issue, except for the fact you were so quick to jump all over my assessment of the actions depicted in the still photo sequence with your condescendingly smug claim that you could easily perform the technique as shown in the photo sequence against a frontal push in one (1) second or less, and that you would prove me wrong in my assessment by clearly demonstrating your ability to exactly duplicate the photo sequence in a video clip.

You even asked me what I would say...how would I respond...after seeing your video proof? I'm still not sure whether you were asking me how I would respond to being proven wrong by your video, or if you were asking how I would respond to proof of your mastery in the video, since I stated my belief that only "accomplished and experienced Masters" would likely be capable of exactly duplicating the photo sequence technique in one second or less?

The video clip you then presented...which was very nicely produced by the way...made deliberate use of direct quotes from my posts...with my name attached...to insure that every viewer understood who it was that you were intending to target with your video demonstration. An impressively slick little presentation to put Challenger in his place is really what it was all about, right? Well, along with the ego gratification of discrediting me and proving me wrong, too, of course! Right? OK! Great! I'm game. So where is it?

I neither request nor wish to view 100 videos of you performing this technique. But all things considered at this point...I would like to see you do it one time exactly as depicted in the still photo sequence....as per your claim. That's all. Just one video...in one second or less...one time...to substantiate your claim. Nothing more....nothing less!

I give you my word that I will enthusiastically acknowledge your proof when I see it, and again reaffirm my admiration for your courage in boldly making the claim and then proving it! As you well know I'm sure, in the martial arts world alot of people make alot of claims about alot of skills, but very few are able to actually substantiate their claims. And so, I definitely consider those who can 'a cut above the rest' to be sure.

Regarding the photos in question, let's forget about photo #1, and consider that the technique begins when the defender places his hands on the pusher and commence shifting backwards to yield to and neutralize the push as in photo #2. That's one (1) weight shift.

The defender then has to completely withdraw his lead foot to step around the pusher's forward leg and foot, and advance forward on the outside of the pusher's leading leg in order to reposition it for the takedown, along with properly positioning his leading right arm and hand for the takedown...as shown in photo #3. That's a withdrawal step and a forward step with the defender's front leg and foot, accompanied by another full weight shift forward. That's two (2) separate weight shifts so far.

The defender then takes another full step forward with his rear left foot and drops his advancing body weight downward to execute the takedown which completes the technique. That's three (3) separate weight shifts and three (3) steps...not counting the preparatory step needed to get into the stance of photo #1...against a live opponent performing a two handed frontal push....in one (1) second or less! Nothing to it, right?

Or...you could always just agree with me that it's too many steps, and too many weight shifts, to effectively perform with balance and body contol throughout in only one second.

In fairness to you, I acknowledge that you did a beautiful job of demonstrating the movements depicted in photo #2 and photo #3 in one second, but that's not what you claimed you would demonstrate....and so, that's just not good enough...even if your supporters think so.

Details can be very annoying sometimes, can't they? And the hell of it is that I think you can do it.....if you believe you can!

Respectfully

Challenger


Anthony Korahais Sifu Anthony Korahais
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam USA
21st March 2006

Dear Challenger,

It's true that I singled you out with the video, although I didn't name you in it (God knows where these videos end up on the Internet). Mostly, I was just having fun with my new video editing skills. But you are correct that I was also trying to prove your comments wrong. Is that a surprise?

As for being smug and condescending -- well, I don't see myself that way (but it's interesting that you use those words). I see myself as honest. I do not call myself a master, but I am not afraid to disagree with someone who does. And that's exactly what I did.

I am satisfied with how I countered your comments about the technique being too slow. You can continue to defend your previous statements, but I've already made my points about the photos and the videos. People can see for themselves what these reveal. In the end, a video is worth thousands of words -- so you have a lot of typing to do in order to catch up. (Smile)

It's interesting that you continue to point to the foot adjustment and weight shift in photos 3-4. I've already explained that. I also showed it in the video. I move forward by readjusting the front foot (and then the back foot). I may not move exactly the way Simon does, but the technique is similar enough.

Challenger, you may have noticed that I was not the only one to jump in and say that I could do it in less than the 3-4 seconds you predicted. I think many of us were surprised at your analysis of the photos. George, who has only been with Shaolin Wahnam for a few years, also said that he could do it in under 3 seconds. It seems obvious to me that you made some incorrect assumptions about the photos. The strangest was your suggestion that Photo #1 involved a step forward or backward to meet the opponent. Why you assumed this is beyond me, but it's nice to see that you finally let go of that incorrect assumption. I wonder when you'll let go of the others.


Dear all,

Since Challenger didn't answer my question, I'll throw it out to others. Do you think that the technique shown in my video is an effective way to yield and counter a push?

Best to all,

__________________
Anthony Korahais
Shaolin Wahnam, Florida
http://www.FlowingZen.com .


A Discussion on Yielding



Intensive Courses offered by Sifu Wong


TOP OF PAGE
TITLE PAGE
TABLE OF CONTENTS
HOME PAGE